Serious Business

Ground rules:  We are discussing a politicians plans for improving the country here, not how moving their speeches on the subject are.  How does your candidate stand, what will they do if elected, what have they done in the past, etc.  I don't think everyone needs to start citing every source, but don't be surprised if someone asks you for evidence of of a claim or two.

Please stay away from personal attacks, against politicians and each other.

Obama on gun control (Wikipedia)
Obama on gun control (On the Issues)
McCain on gun control (Wikipedia)
McCain on gun control (On the Issues)

I'm not a big fan of either candidate here, Obama's has a history of being way too restrictive, and McCain has a history of not being restrictive enough.  I definitely lean toward McCain.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone needs to own a semiautomatic rifle. I come from a family of majority republican, small town ranchers who love to hunt. The main argument for the rifles that I have heard is hunting. Who the hell is gonna hunt a deer with an AK-47? No one! You'd fill the thing with so much lead, it would be poisonous to eat. Self defense? As Dave once stated, the click-clack of a shotgun is universal for "get the fuck away from me", even in the dark where it's actually your teenage kid just trying to sneak back in from a night with their bf/gf  (because their abstinence-only sex ed did such a bang up job).

I also see very little need for the common household handgun. I can't remember the actual stat, but i believe it is something like 85% of accidental shootings (self inflicted and otherwise) is from handguns, and it was something along the lines of 40% of those were children. In England, handguns are illegal across the board. Shotguns and rifles are ok, but they must be registered, shells registered, and kept in a federally approved gun case with two locks when not in use. Now this would make any one of my family have a massive brain anurism, and maybe that strict a rule isn't for america, cause god damn we love our guns. In Texas, you can buy a shotgun at wal-mart and not even give a name.

The fact is, other than war-stricken nations, America ranks highest for deaths by guns. We have the highest accidental death by handgun ranking in the world (peace faring nations). You don't need a bazooka to go dove hunting.

Does it really matter why a person wants one?

I'm kinda old school, I don't think it should be illegal unless it infringes on another person's rights. You owning a fully automatic rifle doesn't infringe on my rights. I don't care what your reason is for owning it any more than I care about why you'd choose to eat at McDonald's. I might not want to do either my self, but I think it's your right to if that's what you want.

As for the potential unlawful use of an automatic weapon, well make the misuse of the weapon illegal, don't make the weapon illegal. I could just as easily kill someone with a sharpened wooden stick... The potential misuse of a tool should not be grounds for the restricting of the tool.

Obviously it is a good idea to restrict less stable and indiscriminate weapons... like rockets, large explosives, and nuclear bombs.

this is the one where obama and i part paths.  nick thinks he's old school, but i'm really old school.  the intent of the 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting, sport, or even protecting your house from robbers.  its was put in there for one reason.  to enable to people to put on an armed revolution should the government ever get too big or too oppressive.  this was clearly thrown right out the window, and no one thinks about this anymore, but i suggest you start.  its not as remote a possibility as you might think.

Devin - Did you mean fully automatic rifles?  afaik (and I may be wrong about this) they are pretty much already illegal w/ out the right paperwork.  I worry much more about concealable weapons.  Kinda on topic: at the rate our offensive technology is evolving, there are fully concealable and fully automatic weapons these days, there is really no valid use for such a thing imo.  If you did mean semiauto, I think we disagree here.  I've got one, it's much less dangerous than my handgun, and has legitimate hunting uses (or would if I ever hunted...).

NNN - There is a pretty distinct difference between a sharpened stick and a concealed handgun or assault rifle.  A sharpened stick has many potential uses.  A gun is a tool with one purpose - killing.  It is quite literally a tool purposefully designed to be the most efficient killing machine possible.  I agree that just about anything can be used as a weapon, but guns are weapons, they have no other legitimate use.  I think it is wise to consider them differently (different legislation) than sharpened sticks, or cars, or baseball bats, or anything else that could be a weapon.

Dave - I applaud your ideals, but I can't help but think they are hopelessly idealistic.  I'm of the opinion that any sort of armed rebellion against the guys in charge would be hopelessly outmatched in terms of number of people, number of guns, money, media control, etc.  It would go down in history as a footnote about some crazy cultists that our benevolent leader wisely ordered a pre-emptive strike against.  Really, a bunch of people with assault rifles can't hope to be a match against what they would throw at you.  The 2nd amendment allows you to make a heroic last stand, and that's pretty much it.  You get to die on your feet, instead of living on your knees (which is probably a preferable alternative).  Having said that, I hope I'm wrong.

Anywho, I'm still leaning toward McCain.  I don't know much about Obama's actual plans for the future, but I pretty strongly disagree with his voting record on the matter.  I'm not to worried about it though, as I doubt he would try to do anything to drastic, and if he did the supreme court would likely rule it unconstitutional (like the DC ban).  I guess I disagree with him on an ideological level, but am comforted by the fact that he would never be able to put those ideals into practice.

Devin - Did you mean fully automatic rifles?  afaik (and I may be wrong about this) they are pretty much already illegal w/ out the right paperwork.  I worry much more about concealable weapons.  Kinda on topic: at the rate our offensive technology is evolving, there are fully concealable and fully automatic weapons these days, there is really no valid use for such a thing imo.  If you did mean semiauto, I think we disagree here.  I've got one, it's much less dangerous than my handgun, and has legitimate hunting uses (or would if I ever hunted...).

Noted and corrected. Despite my country fair background raising, I was never one much to be enthusiastic about guns, and therefore error at times when speaking of guns. My termenology is in need of some accociative correction work.
BUT, automatic rifles are much easier to obtain these days, this I do know. Dave'll probably know more, but some ban on automatic rifles just surpassed its statue of limitation recently within the last 3 or 4 years, allowing gun shops to sell bigger, meaner, and more testosterone suplimental fire power.
I walked into Prodefense one day to pick up some medic gear and saw a huge fucking millitary style assault rifle (I don't know exactly, but it was a rifle, and looked like it had one pursose, intense combat) sitting all shiny and new on the gun rack with a couple ex-marines jizzing their pants where they stood impatient in the ten minutes it was taking to purchase one, or  twelve...

Does it really matter why a person wants one?

I'm kinda old school, I don't think it should be illegal unless it infringes on another person's rights. You owning a fully automatic rifle doesn't infringe on my rights. I don't care what your reason is for owning it any more than I care about why you'd choose to eat at McDonald's. I might not want to do either my self, but I think it's your right to if that's what you want.

As for the potential unlawful use of an automatic weapon, well make the misuse of the weapon illegal, don't make the weapon illegal. I could just as easily kill someone with a sharpened wooden stick... The potential misuse of a tool should not be grounds for the restricting of the tool.

Obviously it is a good idea to restrict less stable and indiscriminate weapons... like rockets, large explosives, and nuclear bombs.

This argument doesn't work for me. It becomes too hypocritical with too many other things I might want to "just have for havings sake" and yet am very firmly told "NO". Instruments of death, as Ryan stated, have one pursose. Death. You're not going to be opening any beer cans with it.
Now yeah, I own a LOT of blades, granted, but I can't walk onto a campus or into a post office and begin hacking people to death without being taken down in short manner. The terror and complete control a whackjob with a gun obtains so easily with complete disregard for life, and even further, complete intent to harm and end life, is staggering.
Gun control will not stop the violence. Nothing will. Extremist gun control is only one step closer to the empowerment of Big Brother. But conservative gun control, Accountability and registration of all hardware, might help stem the tides a little bit. I see no purpose for general access to handguns. I'm sorry Dave, but even as a trained officer, you have scared the fuck out of me at times when you were armed and less than perfectly coherant. You've never unholstered (with the exception of disarming), but there have been some moments that made myself and others more than a little uneasy. And I trust you with a gun more than most people I know.

I don't think a separation need to be made between guns and other tools. I think there is evidence to support that the separation and taboo that is placed on fire arms leads to an ignorance and lack of respect for them, which is what makes any tool dangerous. I think if guns were more common place we'd benefit as a society.

I hate the fact that when I see someone with a gun I get uncomfortable, even if it's just Dave bummin' around the house with his holster on. I should feel absolutely secure in my self, no matter what they're doing with it, unless it's being pointed at me, of course. That slight unease is because I'm inexperienced and unfamiliar with guns. I think many people can relate.
I think criminals probably pick up on this irrational fear and use it, I would. I think, in urban societies, guns are more a tool of fear than of death. This leads to a lot of their misuse. If guns are less taboo and more common place, if kids are raised around guns and taught how to be responsible with them, I think gun violence would go down.

And I still hold to the original idea that only specific actions should be criminal. Criminalizing the possession of something because of what you MIGHT do with it is repressive, bordering on tyrannical. Such laws assume that I am not a sovereign individual who is responsible for my actions, which I believe was one of the major underlying themes of our Constitution.

I don't think a separation need to be made between guns and other tools. I think there is evidence to support that the separation and taboo that is placed on fire arms leads to an ignorance and lack of respect for them, which is what makes any tool dangerous. I think if guns were more common place we'd benefit as a society.

This argument really only works for me for shotguns and rifles, and only for people who work on ranches/hunters/etc.  This is really the only time I see a gun being used as an actual tool.  Concealable handguns, fully automatic rifles, anything w/ armor-piercing capabilities, etc - these are not tools of ranching, they are the tools of war. 

I'm not saying it should be 100% illegal in all circumstances for anyone to have a concealed handgun, full auto rifle, or even a submachine gun.  There are legitimate reasons to own things like that.  Even if you just want to have it as a toy, or part of a collection, I don't really mind.

I just think that under our current system of laws, it is way too easy for the wrong people to get their hands on both legal and illegal guns.  Especially handguns.  I don't worry so much about full auto rifles or submachine guns, I don't hear about them really being used to commit crimes very often.  A .38 bought of the street otoh, is fucking scary.  It will kill you just as dead as an AR15, and fit in a bad guy's back pocket.

Realistically, I don't know how to fix the problem, or even if it can be fixed.  I've never looked into it, but I've heard that it's pretty simple to turn many legal firearms into illegal firearms with some modifications.  And if someone really wants to get a weapon, you aren't going to stop them (you can make it more difficult for them though).

Anywho, back on topic: I think I'm probably more concerned about too much regulation of firearms than too little.  Too much regulation may (or may not) be safer, but it is a bit too much Big  Brotherish for my taste either way.

this is the one where obama and i part paths.  nick thinks he's old school, but i'm really old school.  the intent of the 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting, sport, or even protecting your house from robbers.  its was put in there for one reason.  to enable to people to put on an armed revolution should the government ever get too big or too oppressive.  this was clearly thrown right out the window, and no one thinks about this anymore, but i suggest you start.  its not as remote a possibility as you might think.

Agreed.
This falls right in with the fact that we don't have to quarter soldiers in our homes, etc.

The whole hunting argument is a big fucking red herring.

And you can't have an armed uprising without at least some amount of weapon parity.

so bring on the guns.

The country is already under a revolution under our very noses without a single gun being used. Corporations are buying out the country. When China calls in its debts, where is the money going to come from to make sure our flag doesn't become a solid red one? Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Steve Jobs, and the sort. One day I forsee us not being the United States of America, but the Incorporated Stated of America.

It's hard to revolt against the guys holding the paycheck and healthcare.