Serious Business

Ground rules:  We are discussing a politicians plans for improving the country here, not how moving their speeches on the subject are.  How does your candidate stand, what will they do if elected, what have they done in the past, etc.  I don't think everyone needs to start citing every source, but don't be surprised if someone asks you for evidence of of a claim or two.

Please stay away from personal attacks, against politicians and each other.

Obama on immigration (Wikipedia)
Obama on immigration (On the Issues)
McCain on immigration (Wikipedia)
McCain on immigration (On the Issues)

Both candidates voting records and planned policies are surprisingly similar.  I don't really have much opinion on this matter, so I'll let you guys expound arguments.

Suprise suprise, I'm kinda disapoointed in Obama here. I do not think illegal immigrants should be allowed to vote. American felons cannot vote, why should those technically commiting a felony? The Drivers licence thing I understand, but am not wholly behind. Last year I was rear ended by a mexican sixteen year old girl with no drivers licence or insurance. Her mom or aunt (whoever the woman in the car with her was) spoke little english. My car is still fucked up. No accountablilty in the matter. A DL would allow some amount of accountabilty, but not enough.

Suprise suprise, I'm kinda disapoointed in Obama here. I do not think illegal immigrants should be allowed to vote. American felons cannot vote, why should those technically commiting a felony? The Drivers licence thing I understand, but am not wholly behind. Last year I was rear ended by a mexican sixteen year old girl with no drivers licence or insurance. Her mom or aunt (whoever the woman in the car with her was) spoke little english. My car is still fucked up. No accountablilty in the matter. A DL would allow some amount of accountabilty, but not enough.

what he said.

I don't agree with McCain either here. He voted against Prop 200, which was intended to prevent illegals from voting, or (even worse) recieving welfare. This is absolutely the worst part of the illegal immigration amnesty movement. I'm really mixed on a lot of the detail issues here, but the notion of welfare for them really just pisses me off. As a hard-working (extremely lower-end) middle class citizen, I am not elligable for 99% US aid programs. But I bust my ass, pay my taxes, and get paid pennies on the dollar of what my services are worth. Yet you want to tell me that someone who comes across the border sneaky-sneaky, gets paid under the table (yes, I do realize for fractions of pennies on the dollar of services provided), pay no taxes, ignore local, state, and federal laws, and ship that money back to mexico (established, its not much, but that's not the point im talking about right now) and then are welcomed to my tax dollars while I personally have to attend to them medically. At the same time, my son doesn't get ANY healthcare because I cannot afford it? Yeah. FUCK THAT.

I also don't agree with McCain that English needs to be the "official" language. Face it, we are a nation of mutts. We have the most diverse culture in the world. There are multitudes of nationalities with their own dialects and languages fluent in this country. Making english the official or national language only serves one purpose: in federal buildings and on federal documents, english versions will be the only ones available. For one, this contradicts his opposion to Prop 200. "You can have welfare and vote, but you can't get a spanish version of the documents you need to fill out. So, good luck!"  On a more general matter, it just complicates documentation for those that need to document. DC yanktards just pass the bills, they aren't in the field having to do attempt communication.

So I'm mixed on the issue, and it comes down to individual issues on the matter. But, in the end, there is a KEY word in the term "Illegal Immigrants".

Immigration by itself is fine. Immigrate here. Pay your dues just like me, and I will accomadate you how ever you may need (within reason). Sneaky sneaky here, pay no dues, and expect accomadation and hand out (be you mexican, canadian, or a fuckin' mic)... no bueno.

I don't agree with McCain either here. He voted against Prop 200, which was intended to prevent illegals from voting, or (even worse) recieving welfare. This is absolutely the worst part of the illegal immigration amnesty movement. I'm really mixed on a lot of the detail issues here, but the notion of welfare for them really just pisses me off. As a hard-working (extremely lower-end) middle class citizen, I am not elligable for 99% US aid programs. But I bust my ass, pay my taxes, and get paid pennies on the dollar of what my services are worth. Yet you want to tell me that someone who comes across the border sneaky-sneaky, gets paid under the table (yes, I do realize for fractions of pennies on the dollar of services provided), pay no taxes, ignore local, state, and federal laws, and ship that money back to mexico (established, its not much, but that's not the point im talking about right now) and then are welcomed to my tax dollars while I personally have to attend to them medically. At the same time, my son doesn't get ANY healthcare because I cannot afford it? Yeah. FUCK THAT.

I also don't agree with McCain that English needs to be the "official" language. Face it, we are a nation of mutts. We have the most diverse culture in the world. There are multitudes of nationalities with their own dialects and languages fluent in this country. Making english the official or national language only serves one purpose: in federal buildings and on federal documents, english versions will be the only ones available. For one, this contradicts his opposion to Prop 200. "You can have welfare and vote, but you can't get a spanish version of the documents you need to fill out. So, good luck!"  On a more general matter, it just complicates documentation for those that need to document. DC yanktards just pass the bills, they aren't in the field having to do attempt communication.

So I'm mixed on the issue, and it comes down to individual issues on the matter. But, in the end, there is a KEY word in the term "Illegal Immigrants".

Immigration by itself is fine. Immigrate here. Pay your dues just like me, and I will accomadate you how ever you may need (within reason). Sneaky sneaky here, pay no dues, and expect accomadation and hand out (be you mexican, canadian, or a fuckin' mic)... no bueno.

Man, i gotta agree with Devin on this one.  Of course, I'm the nutcase who is all for putting birth control medication in Government cheese (if you need free cheese, you lose the privilege of procreation) so I'm not sure what my agreement is worth.

I'm the nutcase who is all for putting birth control medication in Government cheese (if you need free cheese, you lose the privilege of procreation).

YES! Let's do it!